We plan to do ceramic tile on bathroom and kitchen floors. Floor joists are 12" Silent Floor TJI. Sub floor is 5/8" T&G Weyerhaeuser Sturdi Wood structual panels (OSB). In the kitchen this is covered by 3/8" fibre board of some kind and then linolium. In the BR 3/8" plywood and lino. One local tile supplier says lino must come up then a layer of metal lath and mortor under the tile in the kitchen ($3.25 sq ft) Another local firm (29 yrs in business), Sears Flooring Centre and Rona all say the tile can go right over the lino (with suitable preparation). What do you think?

29 years of experience eh .... that's a long time to be wrong.


Your floor must be ONE complete system from the joists to your tile.

We have a section on the main page regarding wire lath and scratchcoat. That system isn't meant for floors ... it's meant only for walls.

The 3/8" underlayment should come up with the vinyl.
If you counter-sink a circular-saw so that it cuts ONLY through the vinyl and underlayment, then cut the whole area you want to remove in strips of about 2 feet wide .... everything should peel up.
Test 1 strip about 12" wide first to make sure it's relatively easy ... then maybe make the strips a little wider.

Anyone who is in the business of offering customer support for ceramic tile and stone installations should be required to read at least ONCE the Terrazzo Tile and Marble Association of Canada (TTMAC) or Tile Council of America (TCA) handbook.

You need to determine the amount of bounce in your floor. You've got good joists with a close spacing so you should be fine, but THAT will depend on the longest unsupported span of the joists. Let us know and we'll help you make some choices.

Some people I know were having their floors redone, and they mentioned the people they hired were laying tile on the existing linoleum. They said they even mentioned that in cases where there was no linoleum (new construction) they installed linoleum first sometimes, then put tile on it.

I didn't have the guts/heart to tell them that the guys they were using just didn't want to do it right (in my opinion).

Ron

Sorry I was in error, we have sheet vinyl not lino. I've talked to three more tile outlets, two of whom say OK over sheet vinyl so long as it is securly glued to the underlay. One says no, they have used metal lath for 40 years without a problem. Says it is approved by TTMAC, Tile Association of Canada. I should add that our joists are 12" deep on 16" centers and span 16' in the kitchen so maybe the bounce would be too great although I don't notice any.

Ask them which page it's on in their handbook?

This system fails .... Especially going over vinyl ... it's wrong. Anyone who tells you this is helping to lower the standards in this industry and should be thrown to the wolves.

The TTMAC has NEVER approved this method. In fact it was tested by the TTMAC and failed every test. It isn't even rated for light residential. It has the highest rate of failure.

Your span should be ok with the joists you have. If you feel a definate bounce in the floor then perhaps consider a support of some kind (if possible) under a mid point of the joists.

Well, they didn't show me the handbook but referred me to WWW.TTMAC.com/Content/313-2006.pdf Detail C, which seems to show 'galvanized metal lath, 32mm mortar bed' as suitable. Regardless, I have looked closer at the floor and it appears the 3/8" fibre board is glued down so getting it up would be a real problem. What do you think of taking up the sheet vinyl and laying 1/4" plywood over the fibre board, nailed or screwed right through the subfloor, then 1/4" tiles. This would raise the kitchen floor to 7/8" plus the thickness of the tile glue. Not ideal since our hardwood is 3/4" but it seems the alternative is new sheet vinyl or perhaps laminate tile.

The detail your referring to is a true mud bed install at 1-1/4" min. in thickness. What your talking about is a scatch coat job. Apples and oranges comparison.

I just looked at a job yesterday which will be a complete tear out. 1/4" luan / vinyl / wire lath-scratch coat and tile. Grout popping out, tiles cracked and in one room tile has tented.
BTW, the homeowner was told the above method was the correct way to install tile. What do you think?

You are better to bite the bullet and redo the installation the correct way. A 1/4 to 3/8 proper underlay should bring your floor darn close to the height of your hardwood.

That article has nothing to do with the scratchcoat method you had priced at $3.25 psf. As Randall mentioned ... that defines a "mortar bed" which would run you closer to the $10.00 psf range ... and 1" thicker.

The best thing to do is research all the information you gather and decide for yourself what you consider to be the best solution, but to defend one method against another based on he said she said etc ... is spinning your tires in muck.

Good luck.

Lardot,

If you proceed to compromize and do a half-assed job just so that your tiled floor ends up close to the same heigth as an adjacent floor, YOU will force me to take a ride to BC and stick a naughty sign on your front lawn!!

You want all the floors to be the same level? Then install tiles on all the floors. Or install another layer of plywood under the one that is thinner.

By the way, as Randall and Harry already mentioned, those hacks that quoted $3.25 are not going to do the "real" mud job you referred to in the manual. I'll even bet that they said something like, we're installing metal lathe and then called the thinset "mud" to confuse you!

Jaz

Hi everyone,

I know that I'm preaching to the choir, but I have spent a good deal of time with some of the "big shots" at the TCA lab in South Carolina, and the facts are that a lot of testing has gone on over the years...trying in some way to get the scratch coat method to work, and somehow someway get the most basic of ratings. It hasn't been done yet, and it's not from lack of trying.

Rob, it's finally to the point up here where it will not longer be passed by building inspectors. It'll be law in a month or so that if it's used, it won't pass.
I wonder what song the tile outlets who are still pushing this crap will sing then?

Ah, that's too bad.They're so easy to rip out in a renovation.

It's be the song that goes, Oh, this is just like the old wire lath...except it's orange.

That's a mud bed, not scratch coat.