Hi,

I've recently purchased a showroom floor model of a curved 10 ml glass shower wall and will need to build a curved curb to accommodate it. (There's only one curve, at the end.) Does anyone have any experience or thoughts on how best to build the curb? The only way I can think of accomplishing what I need is to build it 'off site', using 3 2X4's - stacked, glued and cut to the desired angle, then glueing and screwing the entire unit to the wood floor. Does this sound right?

OR

Could I build the curb in place by roughing-in the shape and trying to do the final shaping using mud and wire?

I'm so happy to have found this site - after reading a variety of instructions and seeing the step by step photos provided on how to build a properly sloped, watertight shower pan, I'm feeling confident enough to tackle this project. I think the trick will be to take it one step at a time and not to rush.

thanks for any help and advice.

Jools

Is this actually a curve or an angle?

You may have a hard time building a curve out of 2x4's. Don't think you'd want to try to compensate it out with mud and lathe since it would be too thin in some spots and two thick in others.

Is there a template for the curve? If so, I might get a 2x8 or 2x10, whatever width it takes to make the entire curve, and cut it out with a jigsaw. You could stack them three high and glue and screw them to the subfloor, the adjacent framing, and to each other. Make sure you use kiln-dried lumber.

I have built curved curbs before by laminating bent layers of 3/8 plywood. I cut 2/3 of the way through one face of the plywood at about 1 inch intervals to make it bend better.

If you have access to a band saw, then it's easy to cut the curve out of a 2x12

A better alternative may be to build a solid concrete curb. Form the edges by drawing lines on the floor. Then take a 4.5" strip of 1/2" plywood and screw cleats to it every few inches. Attach the cleats to the floor, bending the plywood to follow the line as you go. Fill with a low water to cement ratio concrete and you're done. A piece of rebar would also help.

There reason many contractors don't do it this way is because it takes a couple of days longer while you wait for the concrete to cure enough to strip the plywood off.

Another good idea, Pete.

If you try this method, I would also suggest that you put some plastic on the floor under the curb to keep the subfloor from drawing the moisture out of the concrete. You might also consider some long screws (maybe 4" or so) screwed in the depth of the subfloor every few inches to anchor it. Otherwise it won't be attached to anything.

Yes K-man has good points. The screws he's talking about are screwed 3/4" into the floor before the pour and protrude into the concrete.

thanks for your responses!

I like the idea of building the solid concrete curb - it would certainly be less complicated than trying to laminate 2X4 (or 6, or 8's) and cutting the angle on a bandsaw or using a jigsaw. This is a definite curve - and it needs to match the piece of 10ml glass that it will be supporting - perfectly. Would the concrete be stable enough to drill holes for the glass support brackets?

Now I'm wondering if we should build the entire shower pan using concrete (poured at the same time)? If so, how would we waterproof it - by using a liquid product?

Concrete would hold the brackets as well as anything else. You'll just need to use a masonry bit. Depending on how long the concrete has dried, you may have to use a hammer drill.

You'll need to decide what method of waterproofing you are going to use before you start the shower. Different methods have different sequences of installation.

However, regardless of the method, you'll need to build that concrete curb first. No way to put the shower floor in without the curb.

Kerdi would be a good choice, but it might be tough for a novice to get that curve waterproofed correctly. You might consider using Kerdi for the floor and 2" up the walls and curb, then use a liquid waterproofing up the walls and for the top and outside of the curb. Make sure you use the Kerdi drain if you go this route.

I was thinking it would be easier to use a liquid waterproofing product for the entire showerpan/curb than to try to cut and seal the curve using a kerdi type of product. Is this a practical choice?

If we go this route and build both the curb and pan with poured concrete - I assumed the 'layering' would go as follows:

plastic barrier
concrete (poured)
liquid sealer
mastic
tile
grout

Have I got this right?

(thanks again for your invaluable insights).

You wouldn't need the plastic barrier if you're going to use a topical waterproofing of any kind. You would need to allow the mud bed to dry for several days before you can apply liquid, which is the reason I suggested Kerdi for the floor.

It's not difficult to put Kerdi on a curved surface the way I was suggesting. You would make a few slits to allow for the curve, then put a single strip along the curve. (Don't know if I explained that adequately) If you have a few days to wait, liquid would work fine.

Keep in mind that most liquids require the use of a fabric and a minimum of two coats with a minimum thickness to be effective. Some installers use three coats on the floor, and also use the Kerdi drain in conjunction with fabric and liquid. It's much more time consuming than a single layer of Kerdi.

And you don't want to use any type of premixed adhesive like mastic. Use a dry powder that is mixed with water. The type you use will depend on what waterproofing you use.

aaahh - thanks -

We are not in a hurry (within reason) to get the project completed, once we start - which is why a few days between steps isn't an issue (this is our guest bathroom).

I'll need to research using a liquid application as I didn't realize it required using a fabric as well - I was thinking it was just painted onto the concrete. Is there a specific type of product to use (material-wise)? btw, why is it necessary?

I was thinking the plastic barrier between the poured concrete and the sub-floor would prevent the floor from drawing moisture from the concrete while it was curing.

Not all of them require a fabric. Laticrete Hydroban is the only one I know of that does not require it. There may be others.

The fabric makes the liquid into a more monolithic piece so that shifts in the structure won't cause separations and therefore leaks. Without the fabric it's easy to peel the dried liquid off, especially if it's applied to sheetrock.

When I use liquid in a shower, I use a CBU because the liquid seems to bond better. You have to tape and mud the CBU seams just like normal, and with some liquids you have to use fabric on the seams as well.

The plastic under the mud bed does keep the subfloor from drawing moisture out of the mud. The mud bed will dry through the top, and you will be able to walk on it the next day, but leave it alone for several days before you start waterproofing it.

CBU?

should I continue with my plan of laying the plastic first - or is it not really necessary?

There's a big difference in drying times for a drypac mud bed and regular concrete. You won't be able to apply any liquid membranes to a concrete poured curb for 14 days or more depending on temperature and humidity. Even at that, unless you do a moisture test it's going to be risky.

I would seriously look at another method of curb construction if your in a hurry.

Jools, I also noticed in previous posts you mentioning pouring the shower base in concrete. That's just asking for trouble.
Bases are always done with drypac mud. I hope its just a terminology mistake.

thanks RC - it wasn't a 'terminology' mistake - so I appreciate your pointing out that out. I'd actually done some more reading last night and realized that any and all instructions on how to build a base start with drypac mud to form the slope 'layer', and had decided to take everyone's advice and do it that way. I'll need to source products for waterproofing to see if there's a huge savings in costs associated with one or the other before settling on a method (that assumes that they both ultimately do the job). All things being equal, I think the liquid method seems a little more foolproof, but again, I could be mistaken.

We're not in a hurry - but 14 days might be a little longer than we'd want to wait between steps - other than constructing it out of wood (as discussed earlier), is there any other methods you can think of?

Did I mention that I'm (at best) a novice, having only ever done wall tile installations - constructing the shower base and curb is a bit of a daunting proposition, but certainly nothing that I don't feel I can handle, with the right advice and guidance, that is!

My first choice would be to fabricate it out of 2 bys as already suggested and cover it with cement board. The one I use is 1/2" PermaBase Flex Cement Board and it is bendable. Minimum radius is 6" and it does not require kerf cuts or wetting.
It's not a stock item and is usually a special order.

You may be able to use 1/4" cement board,seeing as the strips will only be about 4-1/2" wide. It would take two layers.
You should be able to pick that up at Home Depot.

Hi,

After a few weeks of planning, purchasing fixtures and flooring, we have finally started our guest bathroom project! Last weekend we ripped out the tub and the old drywall/plaster walls where the shower is going to be installed and have had the rough in plumbing installed. (This house was built in the 50's, when I believe they were just beginning the transition from lath and plaster to drywall - so, what we have is a hybrid of sorts -drywall panels covered with a 1/4" or so of the old type of plaster (does it contain horsehair?) Anyways - today I'm hoping to get the curb built (depends on how much work I can squeeze out of my husband between his old-timer's hockey game this morning and when guests start arriving for the Superbowl get together this afternoon). I have an aversion to skill and jig saws, ever since my dad cut off his thumb when he was building cabinets in our basement (in the '60's) - so I rely on my husband to do anything requiring electricity and blades.

What we've decided to do to build the curb - is to cut two pieces out of 3/4" plywood using a jig saw (we have a full sized template of the curb) - the width of a 2X4. We'll screw one piece to the floor and then lay 2X4's along the top of it for the straight sides and then cut the corner curve out of a 2X10 (probably in two pieces) and screw in place. On top of the 2X4 we'll put the second 3/4" ply curb and screw to secure. This will give us a very solid curb that will equal the thickness of 2 2X4's, with solid sides for securing the mesh. I'll post photos of our work in progress.

(If anyone sees any major flaws in our thinking, hopefully you'll see this and respond before we get started.)

If (that's a big 'if') we can get this much done today, then I plan to start on the shower pan tomorrow, while my husband is at work - following the step by step instructions posted on this site.

You need more than 2pcs of 2by in thickness.
Your rough frame curb needs to be a minimum 4-1/2" in height, unless you are skilled enough to do a mud bed /lath build-up over the 3" of your rough framing.

Thanks RC for confirming what I was wondering about this morning while lying in bed 'planning my next move'. Thankfully, things didn't progress very quickly yesterday and the top plywood layer hasn't been attached - we'll be adding another layer of 2X's to give it a height of 4 1/2", which should be adequate.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to apply the mesh (over the membrane) on the curved part of the curb? Would cutting and bending it to fit be the best method or should I overlap smaller pieces around the curve (I was thinking it might get too bulky)?

What was the final decision on the shower base construction?
Are you using a Kerdi drain with Kerdi waterproofing or standard drain with a liner?

I was planning to use a standard drain with liner - per the instructions on the 'how to build a shower pan' thread. My plumber dropped by a plastic drain that has threaded sides and is apparently foolproof, as you simply screw the fitting into place prior to building your mortar bed (if I understood his instructions correctly), but because there are no apparent weep holes, I'm a little concerned. I'll have him explain how this 'system' works again (and again, until I understand) - but in the meantime, I think I'll go looking for a standard drain - is there one that you recommend?

I think the kerdi drain/liner system is overpriced ($100 for the drain alone!) - and if I can find another method that works as well, I'd rather spend a little extra time than extra money.

thanks for your help

If it doesn't have weep holes, there's no place for the water that gets to the liner to make its way to the drain. When I did conventional showers with a PVC liner, I used the Oatey drain. Doesn't really matter as long as it's a clamping drain.

I'm curious to see how the liner work on a curved surface.

While the drain is certainly expensive, it's hard to beat. A surface-applied membrane or liquid waterproofing will allow the shower to dry out much faster than the standard shower with the liner.

The one he brought by (which I was able to identify/find from your above reference Kman - thanks!) is an Oatey Plastic Series 101

http://www.oatey.com/shower_drains/lit/OAT_Drain_Brochure.pdf

It's intended use is for pre-formed shower bases - which is not what I'm using. He showed me how to attach the pvl liner to the drain by sandwiching it between the bottom piece and the gasket while upside down, then flipping over and putting the drain in place. It all seemed pretty simple, but I'm still not understanding where the water that gets to the liner goes. And I'd prefer to use a drain made specifically for a dry-pack base and liner.

I'm still pondering how the liner will work - and I'm not convinced it will - it possibly depends on how much stretch there is in it.

Still open to any suggestions

Another question - this time about kerdi membrane -

If I opt for the kerdi drain and membrane - can I just use it for the shower base and curb - taking it up the wall approx. 12 inches or so (as I would if I were using a liner) - and use cbu on the walls, covering the kerdi (again, as I would if I were using a liner)? The reason I'm considering this is because I think it might be easier to cut/seal the kerdi around the curve of the curb than it would be to try to use a thicker pvc or other liner to cover the curb, but the cost of doing the entire shower in kerdi would kill my budget.

and,

does anyone know where/how to get the cheapest kerdi membrane? I live in Victoria, BC. - is it cheaper to buy on the internet? I'll check around at the tile places - but I'm wondering if there's a cost benefit to shopping online.

That drain will not work. It's for preformed acrylic shower bases.
The 130 series is the one you need.
Not to be rude, but your plumber has no idea how to build a conventional shower pan.

You may think the Kerdi drain is expensive, but it will give you a better and easier shower pan to build considering the complications of the curved curb.
This not going to be a cheap shower build. Your going to have to use a mix of different materials to make this work. IE: Kerdi drain, Kerdi and a liquid waterproofing.

Again, not to be rude, you are in way over your head on this one.

You haven't even got to the most difficult part, setting tile on the curve and covering the top of the curb.

Save yourself a lot of aggravation and just buy the matching acrylic curved base.

lol

you're probably right RC - but that won't deter me. I'll just keep plugging along with each step of the process, making sure that once I choose a method, I understand it fully before continuing. This isn't rocket science, and if I can teach myself how to wire a 4 room addition that passed inspection by the electrical engineer, then I'm sure I can figure out how to build a shower that doesn't leak.

I understand that the kerdi drain and membrane is the preferred method by most of the professionals, I'm just trying to find an alternative that isn't so expensive. If I can't find one then I'll relent and fork out the money - it'll definitely make the entire process an easier one.

(and yes, I already determined that my plumber should stick to plumbing and forget giving advice on building conventional shower pans).

Thanks again for all your patience and advice.

cheers,

I'm posting a follow up - for anyone interested in how I'm doing with my project. I have photos, which I'll post later.

After trying to find a less expensive alternative, I decided to go with the kerdi system - it really does appear to be the best system for the weekend warrior determined to diy. After much searching and shopping around, I picked up the drain kit at Home Depot ($99.99) and the kerdi membrane at Tiles for Less for $1.98 sq.ft. - by far the best price I could find.

Weekend One: we finished building the shower frame, cubby and curb and put up 5/8" drywall.

Weekend Two: I put up the kerdi on the walls. I admit it was more difficult than I expected it would be to get it smooth and even. The first batch of thinset I mixed was too dry and difficult to manipulate and my seams were a little bulkier than I would have liked, but in the end I managed to get good adhesion. Not a pretty sight though - I give it to you professionals who are able to spread thinset without getting it all over everything. By the time I finished that part of the project, I'd learned the importance of having a bucket of water and a damp sponge nearby.

Weekend Three: Day One - following the instructions on this site and with my dh mixing the mortar a small batch at a time, I was able to build a dry mortar shower base, with pretty close to perfect slope and as smooth and even as I think possible. Next I tackled the curb - using a 'bridge patch' mortar that was recommended to my husband by the sales person at National Concrete. It has a fibre in it that makes it extremely strong. My dh cut a plywood top slightly larger than the curb, which was used as a guide to mud the sides of the curb. It worked perfectly and was much easier than I'd expected it would be. (I'll post photos later). After finishing the curb, I put down cardboard to protect the base and stepping gingerly, I marked the walls for tile placement.

Day Two - after the base and curb cured overnight, I applied the kerdi - and just to be extra certain that I'd have a watertight seal, applied kerdi fix over the joints along the curb top and inside corners. After the kerdi fix and thinset had cured, I plugged the drain and filled with water and left it. 18 hours later the water had not budged from the original marking - time to start tiling.

more to come (with photos)

Way to go Julie. I have no vested interest in your shower, obviously. I just want you to finish it properly, and prove Randall wrong.

To be perfectly honest, I don't blame RC for jumping to the conclusion that I was in over my head - reading back over the thread, it would appear that I'm pretty clueless indeed - but that is how I learn - by asking too many questions and making my mistakes 'on paper'. I don't just want to be told to do something, I want to know 'why'. Just the way my mind works. I want to learn as much about why not to do something as I do about how best to accomplish it.

I've yet to start a project that I haven't completed - and this is one that I'm already pretty proud of myself for.

I'll post photos, once I get time to figure out how - but that'll have to wait - I'm halfway through tiling and though it's taking me a lot longer than I anticipated it would, I'm determined to get each tile on the wall square, plumb and aligned with the adjoining tiles, with perfect 1/16" spacing. So far, so good.

Right now, I'm going to make a template for the tiles that will cover the top of the curve, in preparation for my next tiling day on Friday.

cheers

Looking forward to seeing the photos.

I have a question about cutting the tiles for the top of the curve -

which of these options would look more 'professional', is there a preferred method, or is it a case of 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other?

1. Equal-sized tiles, probably 2" on the inside corner and close to 3" on the outside edge, aligned with the same width sized tiles on the outside of the curb - there would be 12 or so of these

or

2. Using a mini-grinder, hand cutting the curve using as few tiles as possible for the top (possibly 2 or 3 tiles); the outside of the curve would still have to be smaller equal-sized tiles.

Thanks

What kind of trim are you using to cover the cut edges of the tile?

hadn't planned on using any trim - just the edge of the tile - is this a bad idea?

Is the tile the same colour all the way through? It will look pretty bad if the edges are a different colour than the surface of the tile.

yes - it's 12X12 travertine

would we need to polish (grind) the edges, or would a clean cut suffice?

See what happens when I don't read the entire thread?

So yes, what ever you have to do to the edges to make it look like the rest will look just fine. I'd go with the biggest pieces on the top.

thanks - I may have to practice on a couple of pieces, but I think it would letter better as well.

Before:

[image]http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3986460&l=1782c98dda&id=532627272[image]

hrm,

I'm not sure how to load the photos so they show up in my post - and I only seem to be able to send a link to my facebook album - but in any case, there are photos, for anyone interested.

Wow, that looks really good. Nice job

wow - not sure what you did to get the photos here, but thanks!

As you can see, the mortar mix for the drain was a little too sloppy - but after soaking up the excess water with a few paper towels, it dried hard and solid.


and as I said before, the kerdi application is not a pretty one - but at least it did the job and no one but everyone who sees these photos, will ever know what lies beneath the tile!

Photo's are pretty easy...especially since you have them online already. Google Chrome for instance..when you right click on a picture, it gives you the option that says Copy image URL. All you have to do is copy and paste it into the photo box thingy that Harry has here on the website. If you are using IE, right clicking on the picture and clicking preferences, will bring up the same URL..usually at the very bottom of all the other stuff if brings up. Google Chrome is so easy.

The photo add button is only showing when you use the FULL REPLY SCREEN.

Well, the bathroom is all done and will attempt to share some photos of the finished space. I ended up having to use leftover tile pieces to cover the top of the curve, as the distributor had sold everything he had in stock (12 pallets) to a contractor, and there were no extras to be had. Turned out I'd miscalculated the finished width of the two small side walls and needed 6 more tiles to be able to cut large tiles for the curb. Not a problem in the end - I'm pretty happy with the results.

too confusing, I'm afraid - I'm just posting a link to my facebook site that has the photos:

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=162727&id=532627272&l=2564e857de

Now there's something to be proud of!!

Good job.

Well Jools I think you've been pullin my leg all along. For someone who didn't know much about tile you sure did a fine job.
Congratulations.

BTW, I saw another shower exactly like yours on U-Tube. It was done before yours and I actually thought you were BS-in me all along.

Thanks Kman and RC

and yeah, I saw that video on youtube after I'd bought the kerdi supplies, which made me determined that if they could do it, then so could I. It was their application of the kerdi on the curb that I sort of copied, although I don't recall if they used as much kerdi fix as I did.

I'm not going to kid you - this project took a really long time, much longer than I'd expected - basically 4 day weekends since the end of January - and I spent a great deal of time between phases, standing and staring at the mess I'd started, trying to run through every conceivable problem that I might encounter, so I'd know what to do when and if I did encounter it. I bought an inexpensive tile saw that they assured me would do the trick, but was a piece of crap, so I ended up borrowing a professional one from my brother-in-law, which made all the difference in the world. It took me an entire afternoon to lay the tiles on shower base and another day to cut and lay the curb tiles. Just goes to show that a little confidence, a lot of determination and patience as well as a husband who closed his eyes to the shambles the rest of the house was in for well over a month will get you. The end product is something I'm really proud of (not to mention the plastering, flooring, finish plumbing etc. that I took on). The only thing I didn't do was build the floating vanity (I designed it, and had it built/installed).

So, thanks RC - and for what it's worth, you words of warning only made me more determined to do it right!

A little reverse psychology goes along way.

At least thats what we'll tell everyone.

Again, awesome job, you should feel very proud.