I’m a DIY’r at an impasse.

We bought a fixer-upper 3 years ago and I had never tiled. A friend told me I had the skills. I am pretty handy. So when I remodeled our kitchen, I tiled the floor and although it’s a lot more work than other floor coverings, it look great, holds up well and is easy to maintain.

So, I decided to tile the countertops when I put in the new cabinets. I used metal trim and wood trim on the hopes that the metal trim will protect the wood trim and extend the life of the work. Again, I’m quite happy with the outcome. My only complaint, I can't roll out pie crust on these countertops !

Here are links to a few before and after pictures:
Kitchen before
Kitchen After
Kitchen after closeup

We knew we would have to gut out and redo the bathroom, so about a year and a half ago bought a bunch of ceramic tile at a closeout. More than enough to tile the floor and the tub surround, with plenty extra to fix my inevitable mis-cuts and other possible boo-boos!

I’ve tiled the bathroom floor. In doing so, I’ve come to realize that this tile is not a polished finish tile, like the kitchen or countertop. In turn, my sponging of the grout was not done well enough to remove the grout completely. This has left the tile looking a little lighter than it was out of the box. I think I can correct this before putting down the sealant, but it’s not my big concern. Here’s a picture that may show what I’m talking about:
grout-haze

My plan has always been to use this tile around the tub. Now, after having a new glass block window installed and marking out my layout on the wall, just as I’m about to put in a batten board, it has occurred to me that this tile may not be appropriate because it seems rather porous.

Or, if it is an appropriate tile for a tub surround, it may require some treatment on completion or more maintenance in the future than I really want to have to deal with.

Here’s a picture of the tag on one of the boxes. These are Dalatile, ceramic tiles, 2”X2” square, in 1’X2’ sheets:
Tile-Label

One final note: For numerous reasons, I’ve already bought Bostic, Tru-Color, pre-mixed polyurethane grout to grout this job.

Any thoughts about the appropriateness of this tile?


Thanks in advance for your input.

do not apply sealer! this will make grout haze virtually impossible to remove. wash the floor with a 50% mix of warm water and white vinegar, then clean water. Let it dry out for a couple of days and then apply grout sealer.

The tile you have is a non glazed porcelain. Daltile makes good quality tile suitable for heavy duty commercial applications. It is not porous. if you like the way it looks put it on. You will have an easier time setting it with a good quality non-sag thinset.

pistolpete: Thanks for your reply. As I mentioned, I'm not too concerned with the hazing, I had already read about removing the haze in the forums. Perhaps it was a response you wrote to someone else. I’ve also learned on the kitchen tile that vinegar and water are great for removing water stains that show up on the floor from time to time.

But, I am curious as to how you are able to determine that, 1) the tile is "non glazed porcelain" and 2) "It is not porous".

Regarding the tile type, as I said in my posting, I thought the tile was ceramic. I made this assumption based on the [ Top of Box ], so I'm wondering what made you conclude differently. Is it possible that this is porcelain ceramic? Actually, I don’t understand the nomenclature. Does it even matter in this case?

In regards to the tile being non-porous. I was under the impression that all tile is porous, but to differing degrees. If I google “tile porosity rating”, there are pages and pages of results that talk about this rating, but nowhere can I find a simple method of knowing the rating of a given tile.

However, what is most important to me is the ability to easily clean the tile after it's installed and been exposed to the shower environment for a while. Since the tile didn’t “release” the grout very well, I started getting concerned that the same behavior would occur in the shower.

Again, is this going to be a problem? Or, do I need to “treat” this tile somehow to avoid issues trying to clean it later? Or should I move to a glazed surface for easier cleaning? Again, I appreciate the input while I try to determine my best move.

Thank you.

Hi guy,

Yes, it's unglazed porcelain, we can tell just by looking at it long distance even.:D We know it's non porous because for a tile to be classified as porcelain it has to have a water absorption rate of .05% or less. When tiles are that dense, they can be either unglazed or "decorated" in other words glazed. That tile can go anywhere indoors or out. BTW, porcelain IS ceramic.

Regular "basic" glazed ceramic walls tiles (the cheapy ones), can absorb as much as 20% of their weight in water when tested. This is from the bisque not the glaze. However even the glaze has a very slight amount of porosity. Yes even glazed tiles have microscopic pores, but that doesn't come into play much except with polished porcelain. (different subject).

Unglazed porcelain or quarry is not usually used in a residential tub surround or shower walls, but no reason it can't if you like the looks. Of course unglazed tile will be a bit more difficult to maintain. You can apply a penetrating sealer every few years and acid wash now when it's time.

I recommend not using that tile in a shower wall, but it's mostly an esthetic thing. Kinda reminds people of the gang showers back in high school, but many like that.

The most important part of this project is using the right method. How were you gonna install this, any waterproofing, what materials to install?

Jaz

Jaz is correct, especially on the need for adequate water proofing.

I have tiled numerous commercial and residential jobs with Daltile porcelain. It's a nice product, but like Jaz said it has a bit of a commercial feel to it. I generally use it on shower floors, not walls, but that is an aesthetic choice rather than a practical one. IMO non glazed porcelain is not any more difficult to maintain than any other tile and is a lot more durable than most.

Thank you both for your responses. I now feel comfortable using this tile around the tub and I understand the aesthetic concerns, but the boss (wife) gets what she wants! My concern is with doing it right.

Jaz, regarding your question about how I was going to install this, I’m not sure what you’re asking. However, what I did was install the new tub opposite of the old, to change the water wall to a serviceable wall.

I replaced all walls and floors and a few studs and sistered one joist. The exterior wall got stuffed with insulation and topped with water resistant, foil faced insulation, level with the face of the studs. The interior wall to the master bedroom is insulated with fiberglass insulation to reduce noise. The interior wall of the back entry landing has no insulation, but has all the plumbing.

First, I insulated all of the empty voids on the underside of the tub before installation, to add support, reduce noise and help the water stay hot longer when my wife bathes. I then installed a 2X4 stinger on the exterior wall to support the tub.

Once the tub was in, I installed a continuous 6 mill sheet of plastic to the entire surround. On top of the plastic, I installed ½” Hardibacker (I wouldn’t have used Hardibacker if I had found this forum first, as I didn’t know about the thickness difference between the Hardibacker and the new drywall). I did use drywall shims behind the Hardibacker on the stud closest to the drywall and I used plaster and mesh tape, not drywall mud, to smooth the transition between the two and at seams.

After the walls were in, I trimmed the plastic hanging into the tub back as far as I could and then used Redgaurd on all seams and in corners. I even made a piping bag to pipe the Redgaurd in between the tub and bottom of the Hardibacker and then I “pushed” it in, using my finger while it was still wet. I repeated when dry, to ensure a good watertight seal. In addition, I also applied Redgaurd on the water wall, up about half way and on the rest of the walls up about 4 inches. After the Redgaurd dried, I added silicone caulk around the tub, just to bring the caulk level with the face of the Hardibacker where the Redgaurd wasn’t build up that far already.

When I install the tile, I will leave a gap of about 1/16th - 1/8th of an inch around the tub. I have already taped a strip of thick linoleum flooring around the perimeter of the tub to ensure this gap. This is what I did in the kitchen as well. In the kitchen, when the grout was dry, I used matching tile caulk/adhesive to fill the gap. This ensured flexibility where the two dissimilar surfaces meet. In this case, since I’m using a waterproof, antimicrobial, flexible polyurethane grout, I thought I might just grout that perimeter. I could go either way.

As far as mastic goes, I’m still up in the air. I’ve read a lot on the web indicating that the pre-mixed thin set, sold in the big box stores, should be avoided and that I should mix my own glue. So, I called a local flooring contractor’s store and spoke with the local retail tile store. Both of these places said that a premixed Type 1 thin set is fine for this application. I guess I’d go that way just because of the ease, but the conflicting opinions are disheartening.

I’m certainly open to suggestions in this matter and willing to change my track.

It took me a long time to find my answer to how to handle the “appliances” (soap dish, towel bar). My plan there is to avoid mastic where they go and install them after the mastic dries, using a good quality construction adhesive. I understand that I have to secure them in place while they dry. I’m tempted to drill a hole where they go, to let whatever adhesive I use “mush” through that hole and the holes in the appliances I have. I remember that the old appliances had newspaper sticking out of them into the wall cavity, but I didn’t pay close attention to what was going on there when I did the demolition.

I’m also open to suggestions in this matter as well.

Thanks again.

With the 2 inch mosaic on hardibacker mastic will probably work. (mastic is not thinset) I have taken apart numerous showers done this way that held up for 20 years. However, it says right on the bucket of type 1 mastic that it is not suitable for wet areas and very few professional tile setters that I know would ever use mastic in a shower. The trouble with mastic is that if it's not getting air to it it never actually cures. this happens mostly behind larger porcelain tiles. Also if it's getting wet a lot it can re-emulsify.

I would recommend that you get a bag of Mapei ultralite, or Custom Building Products megaflex. Spending a little more on adhesive is well worth the peace of mind. Slightly less expensive would be mapei ultraflex 3 or custom versabond. There are numerous other good thinsets out there, just make sure it's modified.

The soap dish can be stuck on with thinset and held in place with masking tape while that sets. another alternative is to put a bead of silicone around the perimeter of the back surface and then immediately put a glob of hot glue in the middle. Stick it in place fast. The hot glue holds it in place while the silicone cures. Towel racks should have wood backing behind the backerboard to allow screws to hold securely.

Guy,

You've gone thru lots of work to build this, so don't crap-out when it comes to the important part.....the adhesive. I'm not surprised a retail store would tell you type 1 mastic is fine. It may be fine, but if/when moisture gets behind the tiles, not so much. You're better off using real thin set, which comes only in a bag, it's much better and it's much cheaper too. Hardi wants you to use a modified thin set, AKA fortified thin set.

BTW, by definition thin set is made from Portland Cement. It can not be stored in a bucket once mixed. It'll become an anchor within a few hours. I think they get away with calling it thin set because "thin set" is also a method. Thin set installation as opposed to an old fashioned thick-bed or mud-job. Anyway, they do not tell the truth, but once one did, the other manufacturers followed.

I install corner dishes and regular soap dishes while setting the wall tiles. Towel bars, I leave the space and set after or while grouting so it doesn't get in the way. Poking a holes in the backer is good. Some people use silicone, but thin set is the ticket if you're using it to install the tiles.

Jaz

Thanks alot, both of you. It's clear that you're experts!

I really appreciate the explanation on thinset. It drove home the difference and clarified some things I've seen and heard before, but didn't understand.

Jaz – I see you’re in Troy. I’m torn between the pride in completing this myself and thought of paying you your hourly rate to drive up to Lansing

OK guys, I guess I got a couple more question. I picked up Custom Building products Flexbond at Home Depot. It was the only product that said modified, not fortified, and it was the most expensive. Looks a lot like the stuff I did the countertops with, because of its flexibility, which concerned me with granite. So, question #1 - What's the difference between thinset cement, fortified thinset cement and modified thinset cement (besides price)?

Now, the package says to use a 1/4 X 1/4 X 1/4 trowel for tile under 8". That's a mighty thick bed and it seems like it would slope on a vertical surface. It also seems like I'm going to experience a lot of "oozing" on my dinky little 2X2 tiles. That's going to lead to a lot of sponge cleaning and grout scraping before I get to grouting. Am I right? Question # 2 - is this depth necessary?

Guy,

I've done a few installations away from Troy, I think I did one in Okemos years ago when no one knew what Kerdi was, even out of state. All it takes is a motel and a per diem and there I am.

Thin set mortars are a blend of Portland Cement, silica sand, other minerals, fillers and water retentive chemicals to allow for slow curing and so it doesn't set up too fast. Basic thin set, aka Dry-Set, can be "modified" with polymer/latex additives to improve performance and allow to bond to other substrates. Flexbond is a good modified mortar.

Your suspicions about the trowel is correct. 2x2 mosaics can be a hemorrhoid, that is why labor is more as compare to regular wall tiles. Takes more time to install and grout. You need a 1/8" square or maybe a 3/16" V or square trowel.

You also have to take certain precautions when setting over Hardi. Hardi sucks.....the water out of the mortar. You need to sponge or mist just before you spread or it'll set up too fast, and the tiles might end up in the tub by am.

Jaz

I was going to hive you the exact same advice, but Jaz beat me to it I use a 1/4 inch notch to set mosaics, but mine is worn down and it's really more like 3/16. You can also tilt the trowel more to get a thinner layer. Mix your thinset to a mayonaise consistency.

If your joints are actually 1/8" or less then unsanded will work.
The only reason for sanded would be if the grout joint is larger than 1/8"

Your right on the border line of using either one, so the choice is yours.

If you do use unsanded, just keep an eye out for pinholing. Some unsanded grouts are really prone to it.

I highly recommend using sanded grout even if the joints are a bit smaller than 1/8". It'll give you a nicer, fuller joint. Some sanded grout are recommended with joint of 1/16 - 5/8".

Jaz