Hi to all, I'm a first time poster and new to this forum, but thanks to everyone on the excellent advice I have gotten so far. This is the first tile job of a shower pan, from bare joists up, that I have ever attempted and am usiing the walkthrough posted on the other pages that involves felt, deck mud, liner, sand mix, etc. The question I have is on the specific mix ratios and by what common names they may be called, that I am to use for the sloped bed and the layer I put on just under the thinset and tile. Would a standard mortar mix work for both (or either) of these sections? I'm having a tough time finding these ingredients at the local Lowes in my area (Seattle by the way). I have looked into doing the WEDI system but it's just way too cost prohibitive compared to the mud one. It also feels right as many years ago before becoming an electrician, I was involved in the masons apprenticeship. Feels like old times. Thanks in advance for info thats probably been posted a 1000 other times on this site.

Welcome to the forum.
The mix for the shower pans is made up of standard portland cement, masonry or construction sand and water.

The sand and portland are sold in bags and should be in the masonry aisle.

I personally don't use the mortar mixes but some others do. The mortar mixes are a little rich and need to be cut with extra sand. Knowing how much to add is the tricky part. That's why it's easier just to do the separate components in a 4 to 1 ratio or 5 to 1 ratio. IE: 4 parts sand to 1 part Portland and just enough water to form the mix into a ball without crumbling or leaving excess moisture on your hand when you make a ball.

I also would suggest you look into using a Schluter Kerdi drain and build your shower pan with that and the drypac mud bed (as described above) Go to the Schluter web site to see how it's done.

I have always used regular topping mix/sand mix right out of the bag. It works fine for me. Personally I think that the topping mix I get here is pretty lean to begin with. Mortar mix is much stickier and is used to mud the curb. However if you go with kerdi, then use cement board on the curb.

I'd second RC's advice. Get a Kerdi drain and enough kerdi for the shower pan. Then water proof with liquid membrane for the rest.

I would use the same ratio as randall, no need to purchase mortar in bags. We use a 4-1 ratio, we also use a electric mixer, but hand howing works just fine

I forgot to mention, no lime at all just cement

Did the base and it's now curing. Tricky getting the right slope, but I simply held a level across and used a tape measure to check. It all came out well. Next week part 2. THE LINER.

Good that you took the time to do a nice pre-slope but as long as you did do one, you did it right. Many times we see people
( even pros?) just put the liner flat on the plywood sub floor and then mud the base. Take your time and you'll be fine.

Heres another question for you guys. I put the preslope down on Tuesday and have let it cure all week. It feels like it could easily give up its material if I ran a trowel across the top. The slope turned out exactly 1/4" x 1' drop from all four corners, but I feel like its a base that with any extended water flow over it it can easily wash away. Granted thats just the preslope base and I know that the actual base 1-1/2" thick will have the liner under it and thinset and tile on top. But is this a naturally occuring characteristic to a 5 to 1 sand to portland mix? Am I overreacting or do I need a redo?

It can come out a little grainy at times. For the final slope, make sure you pack it down firmly with a wood float, then screed it off to the proper slope. After it's set for 30-45 minutes, slick over it with a steel trowel. This will sort of "seal" it off so it's not so grainy.

So I am having problems with corner and curb make up with a 40 mil liner. I'm sure everyone does as this is thick material. Wondering how crucial it is to have the corners stuffed in completely flat against the pre slope material. If it does than can I patch work some cuts together with the reccommended adhesive and overlap or is that a no-no. I realize that any time you cut or make a hole you're asking for problems, but with the funky angles of a neo angle configuration I really don't see any other way.

KDog, we use furring nails, these nails have a square washer attached to them, then we apply a bead of caulking underneath the washer to secure the overlap on top of the curb only, since the 40 mil pan liner is self sealing this works, your right do not cut the inside of the curb. Also note we use compseal for our pan liner this is 25-30 mil and is more forgiving, I only used the 40 mil once and that was enough!Never had a pan failure to date

So I am having a next to impossible time getting a square and plumb wall with the 40 mil PVC liner I am using with all its folds. I have attempted to chisel out the areas that are high but just can't seem to get a good layout under the durock. Is there another way to waterproof this enclosure and make sure I get as plumb a wall as possible? I am having a custom built glass shower enclosure placed on 3 sides of the neo angle base. So far the first preslope mud pan has been done and the walls will all be durock. I have been picky as h#@$ with getting the walls straight because of that glass install. Any thoughts on the liquid membrane coatings? Or does this type of a build out not allow for that? Any ideas will be greatly appreciated.

Oh, and thanks for all the earlier info on walls and flooring. So far everything except this liner is performing perfectly.

liquid membranes are great, but they have to be implemented with a drain that allows for water weep out from directly beneath the tiles. The Schluter drain unit is the only one I know of that does this well.

Mr. Pistol, I am at a good place to change around the drain as the walls can be taken down and the sloped mud bed is all that is there. It was real easy for me to do the bed so to have to rip it up, if neccessary, is not a big deal for me, if it means getting it right. Let me know how to proceed and which products work best for that kind of an install. Or point me to a tutorial on site, as they all seem very easy to follow.

do a bit of research on Schluter.com It will show you the details of their drain. another way is the Divet method, which was discussed recently in the tread titled complex shower pan.

if you go with the Schluter drain, You will probably have to tear out about 6 inches of the pan all around the drain to re-do the plumbing. Usually when the shower is over an occupied space I put in the Schluter Kerdi drain and the kerdi fabric in the pan and about 2 inches up the walls, then liquid waterproofing for the rest. You can also do liquid water proofing for the whole thing, but you should do 3 coats for the pan and use reinforcing fabric for all changes of plane.

OK, so it looks like I'm doing the Divet method and I'll be using Hydroban. I'll tape all plane changes and any other cracks and crevises before applying, but if there are any tips or tricks to go along with that product please let me know. I won't be starting any Hydroban application until mid to late next week as I now have to redo what I've already started. I feel a lot better about that application as it mimics some waterproofing techniques that I did as an apprentice mason years ago. Thanks in advance and I'm hoping for the best. Oh and one more thing. What thinset product will work best under the durock on the floor? I've got a wood base of 2# layers 3/4" acx with floor joists about 12" apart and lots of bridging.

Not familiar with the acx abbreviation, but assuming it's plywood, you can set your tile directly on that with modified thinset, no durock needed. If you've already installed the Durock, then set with a modified thinset on top of that. Generally speaking you get what you pay for and a $40 per bag thinset will perform better that a $20 bag.

As for Hydroban, I use different brands because nobody here carries it, so I can't help you. Generally speaking you want your mortar bed to cure for two to three days before applying it. Use a paint brush in the corners and a short knap roller for the flats. Work fast and do not try to touch up areas that you went over a few minutes ago. this is because until it is cured a bit it's likely to stick to the roller and peel off. 3 light coats are better than two heavy ones.

ACX is fine, but unless both layers are installed properly, I would still want an uncoupling layer such as CBU or a membrane.

Does an uncoupling layer mean 2 sheets of 3/4" plywood installed with the joints staggered? Or does it mean the 1/2" CBU that I will be putting on top of that? The first layer is screwed down into the joists with glue and 2" screws. The second layer is screwed down with 1-1/4" screws that only attach the 2 layers together. I will now be putting the durock, with thinset underneath, on top of that layer before tiling. Anything else needed before I finalize all this next week and ready for the tile? Oh, and the Hydroban as well is in that mix. And I will take the good advice in regards to quick and light application. Having done a lot of painting (cars and houses) I realize the benefits of doing it that way.

An uncoupling layer can be anything that separates the tile installation from the basic components of the house, i.e. the joists and subfloor.

While a second layer of plywood effectively uncouples the tile from the subfloor, it's not as "tile friendly" as a tile underlayment like CBU or Ditra.

It sounds like you're not taking any shortcuts with this project, which is why I wouldn't eliminate a tile backer under the floor. For what amounts to less than $1 a square foot in materials and a couple of hours work, you can have premium installation.

I won't be. As you can see from the post I will be putting a layer of 1/2" durock on top of the 2 layers of 3/4" ply I have down. And I'll be using thinset on top of the plywood to set the CBU into. At that point I'll put the Hydroban on and then set the tile over all. I think I have it down but if I am missing anything please let me know.

Forgive me if you mentioned this in an earlier post, but what is the purpose of the Hydroban over the CBU? Is there a drain in the floor?

The Hydroban is on top of the Durock therby isolating and providing a waterproof membrane under the tile and over any screws and penetrations into the wall that hold the Durock in place. I get the feeliung that I may be missing something here, and if there is something that needs to happen between the Durock and Hydroban please let me know. And yes there is a drain in the floor that will be waterproofed around with the weepholes exposed as per the directions that Laticrete provides on their website.

Kman probably thought you were putting it on the floor outside of the shower.

He is putting it on the floor from the description in Post #17032

Although in a couple of posts later it seems like it may be the shower floor.

I'm confused.

From reading my earlier posts I understand where the confusion is coming from. I will be putting Durock and a layer of thinset underneath on the plywood floor outside of the shower. Over that will be a partial overlap of a hydroban coat(s) coming from the shower pan area. Much like the description where the PVC is taken over the threshold of the shower pan and wrapped on the outside of the curb. The shower pan itself allready has a sloped sand and portland mix that has a 1/4" fall to the drain. Over that I will put Hydroban as per the instructions on Laticretes website and up the shower walls ceiling height to provide a barrier. Over that will be another mud base with aggregate to keep the weepholes clear on the floor and then tile and thinset. I think that will be sufficient granted I have followed the application instructions given to me earlier and go with 3 light coats of hydro and use a mesh anywhere that the planes do a transfer (ie the curb area and the floor to wall transition). Hope this clears it up and that I have this process correct, beacause so far I have taken earlier advice from this forum, used it, and am seeing excellent results. Let me know if not as I pay attention to any constructive criticism.

Clear as mud.

Sounds like your on the right track.

HydroBan is my preferred waterproof coating for shower pans if you have the time to wait for a 3 day drypac mud cure.

Is there a primer of some sort that needs to be applied to the plastic rim of the drain before applying the Hydroban? It seems to me that some kind of etching would need to be done in order for it to have a tooth in which to adhere. Also, what is the preferred type of thinset to tape and mud the durock joints with? Modified or not? And whats the difference between the two?

There's no need for any primer.

From Laticrete:

Pre-Treat Drains
Drains must be of the clamping ring type, with weepers and as per ASME A112.6.3. Apply a liberal coat^^ of LATICRETE Hydro Ban Waterproofing Membrane liquid around and over the bottom half of drain clamping ring. Cover with a second coat^^ of LATICRETE Hydro Ban. When dry, apply a LATICRETE Latasil™ bead where the LATICRETE Hydro Ban meets the drain throat. Install top half of drain clamping ring.

Here's a link to a drawing for the above specification.
http://apps.laticrete.com/ag2.0/public/render_sa.aspx?id=166

You can use either over cement board. As you will be using a modified thinset for the tile installation you might as well just buy the modified and use it for the mesh joint tape also.

Unmodified has no additives added to it.

Modified has additives already in the bags to aid in bonding capabilities, curring and some flexibility.

So the rock is tapped and mudded. The drywall is complete and painted. I have put on 3 heavy coats of Hydroban in entire shower enclosure and out on to the floor outside the curb. Next step another mud base about 2" thick on the shower pan floor and then the tiling begins! Tommorrow I'll be doing a flood test on the pan to test the Hydroban, but from what I'm seeing it should work out fine.

Now I'm really confused. Why are you putting another 2" over the existing pan that already has HydroBan on it?
Your pan should only have 1 layer of mud and a top coat of HydroBan if you used a clamp style drain with the divot method.
The only extra mud should be to fill the divot around the drain.

The Laticrete clamping drain spec and drawing is a little confusing as they show 2 separate layers of waterproofing around the drain. I think they show it that way to create one surface top coated layer in case a natural stone were to be used for the tile surface. This would prevent a possible bleed thru problem at the drain.
Their spec should only be at the drain, not the entire pan.

Once again I am caught before making an error. I will proceed as you say, but let me get this right. I am at the point where I am performing a flood test as we speak. So far it's been one hour and no problems so I'm draining it. What you are telling me is that the next step should be a mud base but only enough to accomadate the clamping drain. Does that mean I should slope it out into the field and not all the way to the shower wall? And, about how thick should I make the mud fill in the direct area around the drain? Thanks for the help.

Let me try to explain this without having to draw a picture.

FYI, all of this divot method could have been avoided if you had used a Schluter Kerdi Drain.

Since you used a clamp style drain fitting, you should have built the sloped mortar bed about 1-1/2" higher (at the drain) than the clamping flange, except for the area of the divot. The mortar bed then slopes out towards the walls and curb at a rise of 1/4" to the foot above the height you established at the drain.

The divot needs to have a slight radius at the outer top edge to allow a smooth transition for the application of the waterproofing. Make sure the mud bed has cured for a minimum of 3 days at 70 degrees before applying the HydroBan.
When applying the HydroBan around the base plate of the clamp drain you MUST avoid plugging up the weep area with the liquid waterproofing. When the HydroBan is dry in the divot area you then can finish installing the clamp ring.

Once the Hydroban is cured, place some pea gravel, aquarium gravel or tile spacers) around the drain to prevent the weepholes from being plugged when you pack mud into the divot. This mud is screeded to the slope of your pan.

As you can see from the above specification your pan is not constructed correctly. I would suggest you start over and incorporate a Kerdi drain into the pan. It's much easier and better than the clamp drain and divot method.