I’ve got a backsplash in Toronto to price. It’s tumbled-marble run on the horizontal with 12 different 4” feature tiles inset on a diamond. It’s about 25 square feet. There are two 22.5 angles to contend with around a window. I haven’t worked in Toronto in a while. Any idea what a job like that should sell for? Just a rough idea?

Why that's an easy question .... you charge what your work is worth, and of course your work should be worth what you need to make.
Toronto, Barrie, New Market or Nova Scotia .... your work should be worth the same everywhere.

Thats probably the best pricing answer that I've ever heard.
Harry, you have answered basically every pricing question ever asked in one sentence. I have one question though, what is that answer worth to you? HA...

As you know Randy ... I've never answered that question in the forum. Not because I don't want to, but because I really don't know the answer. I've lost work from people because I refused to give them a quote over the phone.
There are people out there who will give prices over the phone. They're called "salespeople".

Any of you work for a retail ceramic tile outlet? They know how to price the material .. to a T. But do they know how to price your work? I doubt it. Even if they do a site visit it's still a gamble.

So bottom line ... decide what you need to make for the time you know it's going take, include material and misc costs .... and presto ... you've got an honest and fair quote.

Funny you nemtion that. I did work for a store up till a year ago. Told him I couldn't do his work anymore for that exact reason. Yesturday he stopped by a job I'm doing to talk about some jobs he's got coming up. When I talk to him next, I'm basically telling him that the only way it will work is if I go measure and price the jobs myself, and also bill the customer direct. Probably get talking to him today. Pretty sure I know what the answer will be but thats just the way it has to be done. He can keep his jobs otherwise.

thats the truth...sales people have no idea what the installers are up against or what they think your labour is worth. I would rather quote the job myself and see it in person. I never quote over the phone. I look at the job and evaluate everything as best I can.

i would charge 500 here in tennessee for a backsplash like that.

I wont work for the tile "stores" that sell a product installed. You need to be able to bid your own work, and sometimes a ft2 price doesn't account for all the labor involved. Especially the smaller jobs, in my experience. Here in Colorado there is a very unfortunate situation in that tile setters (most construction trades for that matter) don't require any accreditation or certification. you wouldn't believe the hacks that are throwing up work around here. My point, they tend to work mainly for these outlets, which also make a premium on the tile setter's labor. As much as the tile setter is earning in some cases! These people work for much less than the market standard, because they are uneducated /inexperienced, and the work is substandard. What we desperately need here is an accreditation system for craftsman, and a system to educate the consumer(contractor to end user)about the benefits of ceramic tile as a building material, and the necessity of proper installation. I'm very interested in talking to the senior members about this more.

I have only owned a buisness installing tile for a little over a year now, i have installed for about 4 years. The problem sometimes with people that have been doing this for a long time is that they forget that what they have learned was either taught by someone with experience or learned the trade through trial and error and or experience in time itself. i come on this sight for helpful tips and have learned alot about what i do, and yet still there is alot to learn for me. I wan't to give a quality product and do to the best of my ability, but when i come on this sight, there is always someone talking about people that don't know how to install tile or are just uneducated on products or installation techniques.. All i am saying is there are still people out here trying to learn the trade for what it is. craftsmanship, integrity and quality. these are not things that happen over night. i agree that there are people out there that are not doing this kind of work. but there are not a lot of places you can go to get adequete training in the area i am in. I still think experience in reputition and just seeing it on a day to day basis is a better teacher.

Sorry Noha, I have to disagree. "Trial and Error" is not an accepted installation method, as far as I know. As craftsman we have a responsibility to understand the products and techniques therein. No matter how you learn, it's YOUR responsibility to learn correctly. This site is an excellent resource.

so if you are teaching yourself you don't think there will be any errors regardless of technique. I think the only way anyone can learn is through trial and error. I didn't say that the errors would not get fixed if they are done wrong I just said in my learning process without a teacher i have done stuff wrong the first time.

noha i'm not questioning your character, or integrity, or passion for the trade. It isn't about you personally. I'm saying that if you lack the technical knowledge, you should consider working with an experienced tile setter to get you up to speed. You said there were a lot of training resources where you live. Continuing education is on all of us.

i wish there were some around here. but even if i find someone whos qualified they are not willing to share the knowledge for fear of loosing work, which is understandable, but doesn't help me any. this sight has been alot of help but there is only so much you can learn from pictures and words, Its just a hard trade to learn, but i do enjoy doing it. Around the nashville area its growing so fast that noone wants quality they want speed, so when these other guys do crappy work it makes the rest of us that care look bad. I have actually thought about leaving the trade all together because the contractors don't won't to pay someone good to do good work they won't speed and crap. then they call me to come and fix it

That's very much like the situation here. I think a lot of that comes down to two things; lack of education on the part of the consumer, and lack of oversight for the specs of our trade. Hence my initial post. As far as other craftsmen being afraid to teach the trade, that's unfortunate. Makes me think someone like that is probably not very secure in the experience they do have. Information sharing serves the whole trade better. I do wish you future success in the trade, you seem genuinely interested. hope to talk to you more in the future.

Although,yes,it's better to start your career by going to trade schools or working as an apprentice under a journeyman in this trade,I bet that most of us learned and are still learning by way of "trial and error".

The standards that are set around here (Toronto area,anyway)for tile work and shower construction are so not right that the only way for a good contractor to learn to do it by the book is to self educate.

For the last few decades,the standards have been "scratchcoat over single layer subfloor,tile mastic in wet areas,PVC pan liner layed flat and used without any regard for the weep holes in the drain assembly...I can go on... :p .I surely didn't want to learn from the veterans that employed these methods.

And then with all the new products that have become popular...20x20 tiles,rectified tiles,stone tiles,epoxy grouts,membranes,electric radiant heat,etc...the savvy contractor's only means of knowing how to successfully perform the labour necessary to complete a job with these products is to read and learn by doing.

Definition of wisdom (in construction especially): Learn by doing.

http://www.ctasc.com/images/TileWise%20C...allqualityF.jpg

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Ron that's why i stopped working in Toronto for about a year now. I've gone WEST.
You find WAY too many hacks in Toronto. Guys showing up at a job site with brand new tools, charging next to nothing for a job, etc.
And the biggest problem amongst the tile trade in TO is CUSTOMERS. They just don't want to pay for a PROPER JOB.
I must've lost tens of thousands of dollars by simply refusing to install tiles on greenboard shower areas. But that all comes with the trade.
That's Not to say, when the pocket pinches every so often or the road ahead seems to decline (December/January) i don't do them, but I STRONGLY recommend all my customers to do it right......ONCE!